610. “Who’s Going to Stop Me?” Writing Super Fun Fantasy with Kimberly Lemming

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 610 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and with me today is Kimberly Lemming. What happens when you write the books you want to read but are having a hard time finding? Many good things. Kimberly Lemming loves fantasy and started writing her own catnip, which means that we all got to read books like That Time I Got Drunk and Yeeted a Love Potion at a Werewolf. We are answering all the tough questions, like How many Mead Mishaps have we experienced? And why is Galavant the greatest production ever made?

Now, in the middle of the episode, you’re going to hear me receive an email that Kimberly sent that gave me a sneak peek at the cover art for That Time I Got Drunk and Saved a Human, which at the time was in the final stages of development, so you will hear me lose my cool. Please enjoy my inner thirteen-year-old being released without any kind of restriction.

I will have links to all of the videogames and all of the books and all of the websites that we talk about in this episode. There will be many links – fear not – and you can find those in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Hello and thank you, thank you, thank you to our Patreon community, and a special hello to Dana. Hi, Dana! Dana is one of the newest members of the podcast Patreon, and the podcast Patreon, well, keeps me going, as I say every week. Every episode has a transcript because of the Patreon – hi, garlicknitter! [Hi, Sarah! – gk] – and every transcript helps everyone be able to access the podcast, which is very important to me and to many other readers and listeners. If you would like to join the Patreon community, it would be wonderful to have you. You can go to patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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All right, are you ready to get talking about fantasy and yeeting and getting drunk and answering the question, Well, who’s going to stop me? Let’s do this podcast.

[music]

Kimberly Lemming: Sorry.

Sarah: While Buzz digs a hole in my carpet – you’re not going to…

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Buddy? Buddy? Yeah. Just lie down. That’s good.

Bandicoot: Woof, woof!

Sarah: Ooh! Dog; what’s the dog’s name?

Kimberly: Bandicoot is the one that just barked, and Pikachu’s probably going to start if I don’t get him under heel, so –

Sarah: Bandicoot and Pikachu.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: These are the greatest names for dogs that I’ve heard –

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – in a really long time.

Kimberly: Thank you!

Sarah: Oh my gosh! Please introduce yourself and tell the people who will be listening who you are and what you do.

Kimberly: All right. Hey, everybody! I’m Kimberly Lemming. I write spicy romance books set in mostly fantasy-ish settings, and yeah!

Sarah: I have to tell you that your Mead Mishaps series is so popular with my podcast community. Like –

Kimberly: Really!

Sarah: – seriously, thank you so much. We have a podcast Discord for the people who support the show on Patreon, and it has come up several times. I love the series. Please tell me everything: what led you to writing this series, because it, it seems like you’re having a really good time.

Kimberly: Oh yeah, I was having a ball. See, what happened was is that I pretty much just hated my job and wanted any excuse to quit, and so my husband –

Sarah: Fair.

Kimberly: – was just like, Well, why don’t you just, like, take some time off and write one of those romance books you kept talking about? Because, like, I kept talking about, like, how much fun would it be to, like, try writing one and not seeing what I wanted to read quite like that?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly: So he’s like, Whatever, but just take some time off and see what happens. And so I was like, Bet! I need no further encouragement to quit my job and try something else.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kimberly: So – [laughs] – for two months I just sat down and wrote. Like, every day I’d get like a couple thousand words out, and mostly it was just me giggling, making up the story as I went along, and so I barely even put, like, a lot of editing into it? I think my husband did like a first pass, then I was, I drew the cover myself, ‘cause I was like, Whee! I wrote a book! And tossed it up on Amazon. And then people started reading it, and I’m like, Oh, wow! I didn’t super think this through!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: Cool!

Sarah: Wait, holy crap! Other people are reading this?

Kimberly: Other people are reading this! And they’re asking for the second one. Okay! I can totally write a second one. And now I’ve just been doing that since, so.

Sarah: I love this so much. I, this is so great! You can tell that you’re writing what you want to read, and writing your own catnip is really fun, isn’t it?

Kimberly: Oh, it’s so much fun.

Sarah: So what were the elements that you wanted to see in a fantasy world that you hadn’t seen? Was it specifically the real love of cheese?

Kimberly: Oh yeah, definitely that!

Sarah: Obviously.

Kimberly: But I was thinking that, ‘cause I love reading fantasy romance; I love it to death. It’s a lot of the times super serious?

Sarah: Yes. And dour.

Kimberly: A lot, yeah, a lot of times what I’m, like, thinking these, in these fantasy novels, like, I would not be spending all this time worrying about, like, who was going to be the next dark lord. I’m a peasant.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: That doesn’t really affect me much. I’m going to try to figure out what’s the best way to, like, cook food, do my hair, whatever’s going to make my personal life easier. So then I started thinking to myself, like, what if someone like that was forced to go on these stupid quests? And so then I just came up with Cinnamon and, like, Well, why can’t we just have, like, nachos? Maybe it’s set in the bayou, because I’m bored of all the European-centered fantasy ones. I want to do what I want to do! So anything I just wanted to see in a fantasy novel I just stuck in there. Like, there’s indoor plumbing; there’s nachos; there’s, like, all the cheeses. There’s pink hair dye, ‘cause why not?

Sarah: Of course! There has always been hair dye!

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: Humans have always been coloring, coloring their hair.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: And it, it must be really fun and liberating to sort of approach fantasy with a, Well, who’s going to stop me? –

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: – kind of attitude.

Kimberly: Who’s going to stop me? It’s fantasy. [Laughs]

Sarah: So how many Mead Mishaps have you faced personally?

Kimberly: Oh gosh. Quite a few, I would say.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: Not as much these days. I’m a little older; the hangovers are worse.

Sarah: Isn’t that not fair?

Kimberly: It’s so not fair!

Sarah: It’s not fair! I used to be able to, like, drink –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – and not feel it for three straight days.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: Aging is crappy, right?

Kimberly: Used to down a bottle of Jack and then just go to your college classes the next morning like it was nothing!

Sarah: Right?

Kimberly: Where are those days at? [Laughs]

Sarah: What happened? I have so much more, like, I have so many more ideas of what I could do after a ser- –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and, and I don’t have the energy, and I can’t handle the hangover.

Kimberly: You can’t handle the hangover, and now you get really excited over a brand-new cast iron skillet.

Sarah: Right?

Kimberly: I don’t understand it, but man, it just, it brightens your whole week up!

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s so, so true.

Tell me about the new covers, which is part of what inspired me to reach out to you, because I love the new one. You mentioned that you drew the original one. Do you have –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – an art background as well?

Kimberly: Yeah! So I have a Bachelor’s degree in Media Arts Animation. I used to paint quite a bit, and before I was doing this I was helping make casino games. Just making all the bananas spin, all that other good stuff. And so –

Sarah: Making the bananas spin.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s awesome!

Kimberly: Yeah! So I just decided, like, it’s probably not going to look like a normal romance cover, just because I didn’t really want to pay another person to do it, so I decided to just paint it myself, and thankfully that worked out.

Sarah: The, it’s a great cover!

Kimberly: Thank you!

Sarah: It’s, it’s, the original covers do what they, you know, they very clearly communicate what you’re going to find inside.

Wilbur: Meow.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: To say nothing of the title.

Why are you interrupting me? And now the cat wants to talk to me during this episode. This is going to be a very mammal-filled episode; I’m very excited.

Kimberly: As it should be.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: So what led to the new cover?

Kimberly: Well, when I got picked up by the publisher, one of the things that Ann, the editor, wanted me to do when she first approached me was, she was thinking of changing the covers to have more of an old-style romantasy book cover like the Fabio-style cover?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Kimberly: And I was like, Oh my gosh, yes! If I wanted to change the covers to anything it’d be that!

Sarah: Of course!

Kimberly: And so when we started talking about it more, they asked me, Do you know any artists that would work with this kind of thing? And I’m just like, Give me an hour. And so I just scoured the internet looking for all of these different realistic-style artists, and I saw that Mike Pape, who’s worked on, like, Baldur’s Gate, all these other, like, huge videogames, had spots open for his commissions, so I was just like, immediately, Him, please! Please pick Mike! He’s amazing! And sure enough, they got him! I fricking love it. I love all the covers he’s done.

Sarah: One of the things that works so well with these covers is, like you said, they have that very Old School sort of big-chested clinch element –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but the heroine is drawn in a much more sort of active, engaged style. Like, things are not happening to her; she is happening to things –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – in this cover. How much art direction input did you get to have?

Kimberly: Well, I pretty much created a fancast of all of the characters so you could see, like, at least their celebrity lookalike?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: And then, of course – [laughs] – and then, of course, he had the original covers to look at, because all of ‘em are a bit of a riff on what I originally drew, and he has not confirmed this, but I’ve just now seen the painting for book three’s cover, and I think he’s read them, because he added in a bit of extra notes I didn’t tell him about. And I’m like, Mike, are you reading these? [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay, first of all, of course he’s reading them, ‘cause they’re really fun.

Kimberly: Thank you!

Sarah: But also, yeah! That’s so great! Is this like, do, do you sort of turn around each morning and try to pinch yourself like, is this actually happening?

Kimberly: All the time! All the time. Like –

[Laughter]

Kimberly: I keep telling people I just, like, wake up and I write books, and that’s my full-time job now? Are you serious? [Laughs]

Sarah: I have that feeling too! [Laughs] So when you’re writing this series, what are some of the things that you absolutely have to put in there?

Kimberly: Just random food jokes, really.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So with your characters and, and their random food obsessions –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – you have this really great balance of silliness and not taking yourself too seriously and, you know, worrying about your hair getting wet, things that are, you know, very real, but also you have, like, these big, grand, terrible, evil things that also must be dealt with. Like, there’s the major, big evil, and then there’s the small evils of getting your hair wet and not having enough cheese.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: When you’re, when you’re plotting – or, first of all, do you plot in advance, or do you just sort of fly by the seat of your pants? I know this is –

Kimberly: I –

Sarah: – a very common question for authors.

Kimberly: I try to plot, and I go in with a plot, and then the plot is immediately lost –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: – into the abyss. Like, I had to tell my editors, like, what is going to be happening in book four for Usha’s book? And I just don’t know how to tell them, that’s not what happens at all anymore. I don’t – [laughs] –

Sarah: I’m pretty sure –

Kimberly: It’s going to be a completely different book.

Sarah: – they’re used to that? Pretty sure. So what is going to happen? Can you, can you talk about what’s happening?

Kimberly: Ah – I don’t know, man. It’s, it’s gotten pretty crazy in that WIP. I’ve got to reel it in somehow, so I don’t want to give too much away. [Laughs]

Sarah: What did you say when you saw the covers, the first cover from Mike Pape?

Kimberly: Well, I think at first it was just like an unhinged screech?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: Then a lot of heavy breathing, and…so much!

Sarah: You, I’m assuming you have poster-size.

Kimberly: Ah, not yet. I am still waiting for it to be delivered.

Sarah: Oh, ex- – I knew it had to be in process. Like, you just have to put those on the wall, right?

Kimberly: Oh yeah. He’s actually going to put all of them up on his website so you can just, like, get poster covers, so I’m super excited for that.

Sarah: Oh, that’s amazing.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: What’s next? What, what are you, what are, what are you working on next? Are you working on next? Are you going to stay in this world? Are you going to develop a new one? What’s, what’s going on?

Kimberly: A bit of both, actually. So, because I can’t stay focused on one task for more than five minutes, I did decide to just start writing an entirely new book, as I’m also writing book four in the Mead Mishaps series? So this next one that’s not Usha and Ambrose, it’s going to be about aliens, and it’s got like a talking lion, some dinosaurs, a Furby-looking thing. It’s, oh my gosh, I’m having so much fun.

Sarah: [Sputters] Yes? Okay, tell me more. [Laughs]

Kimberly: Okay, so I love alien romance; it’s one of my favorite things in the world. I will sit there and, like, binge-read Ruby Dixon and Ella Maven all day. And I was thinking to myself, How much fun would it be if I tried my hand at an alien romance? But I don’t want it to be like the standard, Oh yes, we stole these women for, I don’t know, sex trafficking, or whatever space bad people are doing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: So then I was thinking, like, What if this super-intelligent alien race basically had an oil spill on a different planet and are just like, Aw, crap! We spilled all over this planet. We have to, like, conserve whatever species are on it. So they took the, the Secondo, which are like the sexy aliens on that one planet, who they think are animals, put them on a new conservation planet, and are just like, Aw, crap! All the females died, for reasons. Now we’ve got to scour the galactic for compatible humans, or compatible females, and of course humans fit the bill. So they just, like, snag ‘em and put them on this conversation, or conservation planet. Then they’re just like, Oh, we should probably fill it with a bunch of Earth animals that they’re going to be accustomed so they can survive on this new world. Here’s a bunch of buildings with, like, Earth DNA in it! It must work. It’s a dinosaur museum. So they create an entire world of dinosaurs, and these alien creatures just trying to, like, Oh yeah, we have to fix our mistake and save these animals. And meanwhile the both of them are on this new planet just like, What the fuck?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: What is this? Who, who is in charge here? I, I’m going to whup their ass!

Sarah: So you have dinosaurs –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – and human women –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and aliens on a conservation planet.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So on the, on the surface you have silly mayhem, sort of madcap, what the hell, let’s mess with the entire process of evolution, but at the same time you’re also dealing with colonialism and environmental impact of external forces? Like, that’s a, that’s a big and a little at the same time.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm! It’s my favorite thing. [Laughs]

Sarah: One of the things that strikes me as I listen to you talk about your books is that you are very confident in your own imagination, which is very, very great. And I know a lot of writers are like, How – I did this; I wrote a book. How do I do it again? I know I’ve done this before! Do you ever have that trouble?

Kimberly: All the time –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: – and I think that’s, I think that’s why I get so crazy with it, because I will sit there and just stare at a blank page going, Oh my gosh, how am I ever going to write the drunk demon? I don’t know how to write a book. I wrote that just because I was doing what I was feeling. And every time I write a book, it, that, those horrible thoughts come into play and basically bog me down, and it’s not until I add more ridiculous nonsense and just go with it that I’m finally happy with the book and the book finally gets done. And so far those shenanigans have paid off, so at this point I’m just like, Well, let me just get as weird as I want to get, and I guess somebody’s going to read it, because any time I’m having fun, my readers have fun.

Sarah: Yep.

Kimberly: So let’s just try it.

Sarah: It, it seems like your motivation comes from trusting your instincts and being as much of your unique self as possible.

Kimberly: Yeah, I’d say so.

Sarah: Which is really interesting, because I know one thing that’s really hard is that when you write your first book and it’s just for you and you’re writing your own catnip, and then it’s released into the world, you’re hearing what other people are thinking, and those other voices can also, can often inhibit the creative process, and your solution to that is, No, more.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: More, more mayhem; more silliness; more, more, more of me. That’s what’s going to make this work for me.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: That’s a really smart way to combat something that is so common. It is really alarming to have all of these voices telling you what, what, what they, what they think of your, your silly world.

Kimberly: Yeah! And one thing I’ve learned is that no matter what I put in the silly world, the people that love my sense of humor are probably going to find it funny too, but there’s also going to be a number of people who don’t, and no matter what I do, they’re not going to be happy.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: So why would I spend all of my time trying to focus on that bad part of it, where I can just go have fun and give it to people that I know are going to like it?

Sarah: Absolutely! No question! But I think that’s really important, I think, for, for people to hear, because one of the upsides of, for example, social media is that you can show up and be yourself and do your thing and promote your stuff, whatever weird thing you’re – like, it’s the rule of the internet, right? Whatever weird thing you’re into –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – someone else is into it too. Always, No question.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: You’re never the only one. But at the same time, you get a lot of feedback of how, how un-, unfortunate and terrible it is that you don’t conform to a very narrow standard. The weirder you are, the more you’re going to be like, Nononono, get back in the box and conform and conform, and you’re just sort of like, Absolutely not! There is no way.

Kimberly: No, ‘cause the box didn’t work for me. If I tried to stay in the box of what was considered a normal romantasy, I probably wouldn’t be as popular as I am now.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kimberly: People like it because there’s weird nacho jokes. They like it because, because Cinnamon gets drunk and call herself the Cheese Queen. It’s just, it’s fun for people.

Sarah: Yeah! And it’s also, it’s not trying to appeal to everyone.

Kimberly: Nope!

Sarah: You, you are fully embracing of the flavor that you write.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: That’s very, very cool.

Kimberly: Thank you!

Sarah: And it’s, it’s really kind of inspiring, I think, and I think it will be for people who listen to this episode, because, like, I said, the, the message of conformity is very, very strong –

Kimberly: Yeah.

Sarah: – especially when you’re introducing characters that are not white, characters that are not straight. And, I mean, it’s so wild to me, like, aliens and demons and monsters, they can be, they can be as out there, and people are like, Yeah, that’s fine, whatever, but the humans, the humans have to conform.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Sarah: Really?

Kimberly: It’s just, it’s boring to live in a world where you’re reading the same thing over and over again, so why not take the risks and take the chances? Sometimes they pay off; sometimes they don’t. The alien book could flop! I don’t know, but I’m having fun writing it, so I’m going to keep writing it.

Sarah: What are some of the books that have influenced you in fantasy and romance? Which is a terrible question to ask without having prepared you, and I apologize.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: ‘Cause immediately you’re, my, my brain is always like, Wait, what’s a, what’s a book? Huh?

Kimberly: Right, what’s a book? Well, I’m not going to answer with a book, honestly. I’m going to answer with Galavant, which is, to this day, one of my favorite shows in the world. So if you have not seen Galavant, it’s set in a fantasy setting, but it’s a musical, and it’s probably the greatest thing in the world. Have you seen that show?

Sarah: I have not. I am googling it furiously right now. Tell me everything.

Kimberly: So basically it’s about this hero. Galavant is, of course, the greatest hero in all of the land, and he’s got like this beautiful girl on his arm, but the girl gets stolen away by the evil king! And so he goes to rescue her, only to find out she’s just like, Actually, I think I’m just going to stay and be the queen, you know. And so it’s just a bunch of fantasy shenanigans set in musical form, and I loved every second of it.

Sarah: The music is by Alan Menken?

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: It’s got Disney music in it!

Kimberly: It does!

Sarah: Mmm! Oh my gosh. And this, did this only run for two seasons?

Kimberly: Yes, and it’s a crime against humanity that it was ever canceled.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Kimberly: I’ve watched it at least two full times just like back-to-back, ‘cause I found it and became obsessed with it immediately. It, it combines all of my favorite things! I love musicals; I love fantasy stories; I love a random mix of, like, modern day, because the characters speak like you and I do.

Sarah: Right.

Kimberly: It was hilarious to me, because for the first time, one of their characters was a Black man, just went off about hair care, and I’m just like, Oh my God! I’ve literally never seen that in a fantasy. I’m obsessed with everything about this show. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh! I, I feel like I’ve just discovered what I’m going to be doing for like the next, this weekend. Like, I feel like I’ve just discovered – [laughs] – a giant time suck.

Kimberly: Oh, it’s a wild good use of your time.

Sarah: In the, on the Wikipedia, one of the actors, Mallory Jansen, describes it as the bastard child of Monty Python and The Princess Bride?

Kimberly: That’s actually perfect, yeah! It’s exactly that!

Sarah: Oh my gosh! So how would you describe your books, then?

Kimberly: Oh gosh. A deranged fever dream?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: That’s how I feel about them! [Laughs]

Sarah: With cheese?

Kimberly: With cheese!

Sarah: So this clearly had a massive impact on your writing. I’m going to write –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – the book version of this.

Kimberly: Yeah! And then just anime like InuYasha, ‘cause I’m a huge nerd, so. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my goodness. Thank you for introducing me to this! I just, I am, I’m, like, beside myself right now. Oh my gosh.

Kimberly: Absolutely.

Sarah: That’s incredible!

Kimberly: And if you want more stuff like that, I highly recommend This Quest Is Bullshit by J. P. Valentine. That one actually is a book.

Sarah: This Quest Is Bullshit.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Tell me about it, please! This is amazing.

Kimberly: [Laughs] So This Quest Is Bullshit is a gamer-lite book, and gamer-lite is basically like, the world is set in that of a videogame?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly: So in this world, everyone, when they turn sixteen, has to go talk to these questing stones, and it gives you your life’s quest and gives you your, like, class, like a paladin, a fighter, a cook, whatever. And so our main girl gets the skill set of Courier; literally just, like, a message girl, and her life’s quest is to go to the next town and get a loaf of bread. However, the quest difficulty is set at Legendary –

Sarah: Oh no.

Kimberly: – and she’s just like, What the fuck? [Laughs] She begins her quest to go get her loaf of bread, and she teams up with another guy from her village that got a quest to kill a dragon, so, like, he’s got, like, all the best powers and skill sets or whatever, and they’re just like, Whatever, we’ll just hang out as we go to the next town, ‘cause you’ve got to go there anyway. Then they get attacked by wolves; she has to get a new ability to, like, save him, and then when they finally get to the town, they find out the bakery has just literally burned to the ground. It’s, it’s gone; it’s, it’s Dones-ville…

Sarah: And all she has to do is get this –

Kimberly: Yep.

Sarah: – loaf of damn bread.

Kimberly: All she has to do! And then they go to the next town, and the bakery’s closed. They go to the next town: another fire. And so more and more shenanigans just keep happening that keep her on this quest, and it’s just so much fun.

Sarah: This is clearly an influential, influential plot for you as well.

Kimberly: Oh yeah. I just found this guy, though, so I’m not actually done with the book yet, but I love it.

Sarah: Now, you mentioned that you’re a big nerd; are you also into games?

Kimberly: Oh yeah.

Sarah: What games are you currently playing?

Kimberly: I am trying so hard not to just open up Baldur’s Gate 3 –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kimberly: – and leave my entire life, because I am on a deadline, and I can’t open that game, but know that it is just waiting on my PC, calling to me.

[Laughter]

Sarah: For someone who isn’t familiar, how would you describe Baldur’s Gate?

Kimberly: Baldur’s Gate, from what I’ve told, what I’ve been told, is like someone finally made the ultimate D&D game, and all I want to do is just be a Warlock, and Eldritch Blast my way through life. I just want to blast every little thing. Apparently I can do that in Baldur’s Gate 3, and there’s, like, romanceable people, so I’m going to just, of course, form all of the husbands.

Sarah: Oh!

Kimberly: And I am just, I’m so excited. You get to kill things; you get to marry people; there’s magic – I’m into it.

Sarah: I remember so clearly playing Doom, which you had to boot up from DOS. Like, it was that, was that old of a game –

Kimberly: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – and I had the cheat code to give myself all the weapons on the first level, and so if I had a bad day I would give myself, like, the, the nuclear person-melting, monster-melting –

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – gun, and I would just destroy everything on level one and two, and I felt so much better!

Kimberly: As you should!

Sarah: Right? The, the, the de-, the destruction element where you could just blast everything is very satisfying! But then…

Kimberly: It heals the soul.

Sarah: Yes! It – and it’s kind of wild, because, like, I can’t even kill bugs in my house. I very carefully take them outside, but man, if I’ve had a bad day, I’m going to melt aliens, and I’m going to feel better.

Kimberly: Yeah! And you know what, it’s the best coping mechanism there is –

Sarah: It really is.

Kimberly: – far as I’m concerned.

Sarah: It really is. What games are you, like, absolutely going to replay? Like, what are your favorites? Like, I am big fan of wandering around aimlessly inside Witcher 3 and –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Dragon Age: Inquisition. I will just wander around – oh, bandit! All right, fine, I’ll kill you. Wander around, pick some flowers.

Kimberly: Super –

Sarah: Do you have any games that you do that with?

Kimberly: Oh yeah. For me, that’s definitely Zelda: Breath of the Wild, and –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kimberly: – I just started playing the second one. I’m not very far into yet because, again, so many deadlines.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kimberly: But those games, and then Fire Emblem: Three Houses I love, and pretty much every Pokémon game. I’m a huge Pokémon nerd. I’m sorry; I am.

Sarah: No, there are, there are several Pokémon nerds in my house. I understand completely.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So you’re working on your alien book. Is this also for self-publishing, or is this going to be with your publisher?

Kimberly: So I’m going to send it to my agent to see if she wants to shop it around?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: ‘Cause I don’t know if the publishing houses are ready for weird Jurassic Park aliens? But if they’re not –

Sarah: I mean, they should be!

Kimberly: – I’ll self-publish it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: They should be ready! I don’t know why they’re not. Unfortunate.

Okay. So I always ask this question: what books are you reading that you want to tell people about? With the understanding that I know you’re on deadline, so you may not be reading a lot, but tell me what books are really rocking your world.

Kimberly: So I just got off an Ella Maven kick, and I’m still getting through This Quest Is Bullshit. I was also told very aggressively to read Lord of the Fading Lands by C. L. Wilson? I don’t know what that one’s about, but there’s, like, a picture of a panther roaring a beam of fire and a guy with magic hands on the cover, so I’m guess I’m –

Sarah: Yes.

Kimberly: – excited for that one.

Sarah: Okay.

Kimberly: And I did just read Anger Bang by A-, Avery Qui- – bleah! – Avery Flynn?

Sarah: Yeah?

Kimberly: That’s a really good one.

Sarah: Anger Bang?

Kimberly: I loved it. Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Yeah? ‘Cause Avery also writes a little silliness into her characters, so I can see why that’s a –

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: – that’s a, that’s a, that’s appealing.

And oh, oh my God, the cover just came through.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Ohhh my gosh. It’s so great!

Kimberly: I love this one.

Sarah: It’s so great! Holy cow!

And you know what’s wonderful about your cover? First of all, he has lipstick on his neck; excuse me.

Kimberly: [Laughs]

Sarah: But the characters on your covers look so happy!

Kimberly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: That’s really coming through in the art. Like, everyone just looks like they’re having a great time! It’s not dour and the world is ending and things are hard. It’s like, no, I have a big old pitcher of mead and a hot guy, and things are good!

Kimberly: [Laughs] Covered in his jewelry – it’s a good time for her!

Sarah: Yeah! She’s having a great time! And her boots are fabulous!

Kimberly: Those are some aggressively high boots. I love it so much.

Sarah: That’s incredible! Oh. My. Gosh. Seriously, did you, like, are you just covered with bruises from pinching yourself?

Kimberly: I truly am!

[Laughter]

Kimberly: Like, he sent me the quick mockups of even just, like, his quick sketches of what it was going to look like. I’m like, I’m not ready. I’m physically not ready for these covers!

Sarah: That’s incredible!

Kimberly: It, it cracked me up, because I could see on TikTok and online how scared people were for the cover changes, and it took everything in me to be like, Guys, it’s fine. I promise you, it’s going to be fine!

Sarah: It’s going to be great.

Kimberly: And – [laughs] – it wasn’t until released book one’s cover, and everyone started freaking out and just, like, I told you! See? You don’t know how hard it is to keep this under wraps!

Sarah: Keeping secrets like that when it’s that much fun? And you have a readership community that’s, like, really invested in this world.

Kimberly: I love them.

Sarah: With, okay, so Lord of the Fading Lands –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is – so I find fantasy romance such an interesting genre, because it sort of comes back, and then it comes back, but it’s always a little bit different? So, like, during the, during the early 2000s it was extremely erotic romantic fantasy, because erotica –

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – was having a moment, and then we had the C. L. Wilson Lord of the Fading Lands at about that time. It’s very epic fantasy, and it’s, I think it’s something of a Lost Princess narrative, if I’m remembering correctly, but I remember reading this book and going, Holy crap, I’ve never read anything like this. Do you get that from your readers as well? Holy crap, I’ve never read anything like this?

Kimberly: A little, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah?

Kimberly: It’s not often people normally see Black women in fantasy mostly just joking around, ‘cause a lot of fantasy is more definitely serious, so I get it occasionally.

Sarah: Yeah. What are your favorite things about your characters?

Kimberly: Just how much fun I can have with them. Like, they don’t have to take their world too seriously. They can do literally anything. They could be scared of the big, bad werewolf cooking breakfast in their kitchen, or they could just be like, Eh, whatever, come in.

Sarah: Fine. Yeah. This is only the sixth weirdest thing that I’ve seen this week, so whatever.

Kimberly: Yeah! I mean, my friend’s husband was tearing off arms, so I guess this is fine.

Sarah: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Are there any other books you want to mention? ‘Cause I was interrupted by the amazing cover and my slow email.

Kimberly: I would just say anything by Mimi Grace has been great. I love her.

Sarah: Yeah? I, I feel one of the things that listeners love is coming out of an episode with a, with a reading list. A lot of people will pause and then add things to their lists and then come back? So thank you!

Kimberly: No problem! But yeah, her, la-, the last one I read from Mimi was Along for the Ride, and that was really good.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kimberly: Very cute.

Sarah: Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Kimberly: You can find me on all of the things. I’m most active on TikTok and Instagram. I also have a Twitter or X, I guess it’s called now, and Facebook, Mastodon, all the things, really! Just under @kimberlylemming.

Sarah: That’ll work! I mean keeping it consistent.

It, it is so sad to me for, speaking of taking yourself too seriously? X is just, it’s just depressing at this point!

Kimberly: It’s so stupid. I don’t understand.

Sarah: It’s really embarrassing, right? Like, I have secondhand embarrassment at this point.

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: What is your favorite of the platforms that you’re on?

Kimberly: Oh, TikTok, easily.

Sarah: Yeah?

Kimberly: It’s so entertaining, but it’s also a giant time suck. I literally have to limit myself; just like, No, you’re not going to scroll TikTok all day. We have things to do! Get your head in the game!

Sarah: [Laughs] It is not my medium, because I can’t think visually that well? I, I’m –

Kimberly: Mmm.

Sarah: – I’m, I’m in awe of people who are good TikTok, ‘cause I know that’s not necessarily my skill set? But yes, once you start it’s very easy to just keep going and look up and be like, Oh, it’s been three hours! Ooh!

Kimberly: Yeah. Where am I? Like, that algorithm is so catered to just keep me in my seat. Every time I think I’m going to get up, another video of just, like, a talking parrot shows up, and I’m like, Oh, distraction! Hello!

Sarah: [Laughs] Well, thank you so much for connecting with me. I, I –

Kimberly: Yeah!

Sarah: – really enjoyed talking with you.

Kimberly: This was a lot of fun! Thank you for inviting me!

Sarah: Oh, anytime. And when your next book comes out, would you please, like, email me so we can talk about it?

Kimberly: Absolutely!

Sarah: I would absolutely love to have you back to talk about that, and covers and art, and seriously, congratulations!

Kimberly: Thank you!

Sarah: It is –

Kimberly: That’s so sweet!

Sarah: It is really, really cool to see just silliness, and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. I am a big fan of silly, and I don’t take myself seriously, so I love reading books where the characters and the world doesn’t take itself too seriously.

Kimberly: Yeah. It’s just how I cope with things. I’ve got to laugh about it.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. There’s enough crap in the world.

Kimberly: Yeah!

[music]

And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Kimberly Lemming for her time, and thank you for all of the links. Oh my gosh, I’m going to be playing videogames for the next five to ten years, and it’s going to be great!

As I said in the intro, I will have links to all of the places that you can find Kimberly Lemming; I will link to the cover artist, Mike Pape; and I will link to all of the books and videogames we talked about in this episode.

I also want to say thank you for the reviews. Reviews make a massive difference in whether or not other people see this podcast as a suggested show, and it is really lovely to have an audience of people who are so thoughtful and leave such thoughtful reviews. For example, Alternative Snowman said:

>> I listen to this podcast regularly, even if I have no plans to read the books under discussion. It’s just that funny and enjoyable. Super thoughtful, too, with regards to difficult topics.

Thank you for that! I really appreciate it, and I’d love to know if there was a book that you discovered on the show, because that makes me so happy. I love hearing that people found a book on the podcast.

Not every podcast platform accepts reviews, but if yours does and you leave a review, thank you. It is a deeply, deeply appreciated boost to the show.

I always end with a bad joke, and this week’s joke comes from Bransler, who is in our podcast Patreon Discord.

Why is everyone tired on April 1st?

Why is everyone tired on April 1st?

‘Cause they just finished a thirty-one-day March!

[Laughs] You know what? March was a march this year. I am very tired of being cold and ready to be warm! Less pollen would be great, but, you know, I won’t make unrealistic demands. Thank you, Bransler! Thirty-one day march!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[end of music]